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J2EE Journal: Article

Might Shortage of Advanced Java Developers Reach As High As 50% By 2003?

Might Shortage of Advanced Java Developers Reach As High As 50% By 2003?

(July 19, 2002) - Less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003, according to the Gartner Group, indicating that the demand for Java developers is much higher than the actual availability.

One of the main reasons for this is that developers experience an initial decreased level of productivity when migrating from other languages such as COBOL and RAD/4GL to Java. The leap, in many cases, is just too demanding. "Due to the steep learning curve, less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003," says Gartner.

"Learning the essential differences and complexities of the Java platform is not a short process," comments Ben van Niekerk, product manager at Compuware SA.

Several analysts have indicated that in order to meet the challenges of low Java productivity and to maintain J2EE -based Java applications, there is need for a Java development platform with the productivity of a 4GL environment.

Says Giga Group, "As the market crosses the chasm there is a need for highly productive Java tools that can be used by mainstream developers coming off 4GLs and COBOL."

Compuware's OptimalJ Professional Edition enables developers of varying skill levels to generate working J2EE applications directly from a visual model. Application customization can also be achieved using Optimal J's Business Rules Editor. Developers can add both static and dynamic business rules at the model level. OptimalJ then translates the business rules into Java code and implements them in them in the appropriate places in the applications.

Comments Hurwitz Group, "OptimalJ represents a new paradigm in Java development because it offers the productivity gains of traditional 4GLs and simplifies the development process for developers off all levels, which is necessary for broader Java usage."

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Most Recent Comments
Bad Bart 08/31/02 08:04:00 AM EDT

I know of some people who said they applied to Company X, Y, Z, etc., and when they don't get the job they blame H1B. But when I go the company's web site, or look at the job ad on the monster.com or other job site, it says US CITIZENS AND GREED CARD HOLDERS ONLY - NO VISA SPONSORSHIP.

H1B visas are now being issued at the lowest rate since 1997, and the majority of companies who have open positions are not hiring any H1B's at all. Remember how much _easier_ it was to get a job in 1999 when H1B visas were being issued at TWICE the rate they are now?

Steven P Sweeney 08/21/02 07:42:00 PM EDT

The first steps by humans on another planetary body were taken by Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin on July 20, 1969. That was over 33 years ago, and you Indian scum are two years away from sending an unmanned probe to the moon. The United States always has and always will be the technology leader of the world. You Indians are not worthy of walking on United States soil, go home you are not welcome here.
Steve Sweeney

Steven P Sweeney 08/20/02 07:00:00 PM EDT

Good points!
Steven P Sweeney

Steven P Sweeney 08/20/02 06:47:00 PM EDT

No wonder there are so many poorly written computer books out there, they let anyone write one. The H1Bs are here for one reason to reduce the rates as far as possible. There should be some protection of American workers by the Government. And if you want to get technical the Native Americans were ordinally immigrants from Asia who came across a land bridge from Siberia to Alaska. So get on your knees and kiss my American butt.
Steven P Sweeney

SB 08/12/02 05:14:00 PM EDT

Stop whining about lack of Jobs in Java.
In a global economy only the fittest survive. For heavens sake Stop blaming H1B workers. If they have more merit so be it!

S. Wong 08/12/02 12:52:00 PM EDT

An interesting perspective on the software industry.

Someone 08/12/02 12:35:00 PM EDT

Remember
"All your bases are belongs to us"

If people had the same opinion about this particular video game based on the above caption, that game would never have been famous.

Dont write off a java programmer's competency based on his/her English proficiency alone. I agree it goes a long way in communicating during the course of a job, etc but its not the end of all. Wade around any of the multitude of open source mailing lists and you will see that the best programmers are not necessarily the most proficient in English.

You who was brought up thinking that "I ain't done nothing wrong" is correct English.

American english is as f****d up as any other. So, dont go about preaching about fluency and linking it to java proficiency.

jim 08/12/02 11:26:00 AM EDT

I think you're being a) overly litteral and b) a bit harsh. Agreed, Java came out in 95.... but I believe he meant 20 years in software development, with recent experience in Java... poorly phrased on his part.

As to the the 7 year cutoff.. I remember when it was 98.. I was claiming 4 years Java experience.. more than one interview asked how this was possible... I was a beta tester!! Java 0.1 was pre-released for beta testing prior to it's official releas at Web Innovations (in SF) One in 95. There was a small write-up in wired magazine in 94 about Oak, and how it was going to be released as a fully OO language called Java. By sending an email to Sun, one could get the beta code and become a registered beta tester. Some of us did.

the moral here: Never be too quick to jump to conclusions without verifying ALL the facts and making sure you know the circumstances of the situation.

Scott 08/12/02 09:14:00 AM EDT

The economy's in the crapper, and H1's don't have anything to do with it. Programmers are mostly a non-revenue generating expense. They are the first to be cut. I work for a company of approx. 20,000 people. Every department and business has openings except IT. The IT hiring is frozen solid, and the IT category was actually taken off our website. The 90's drove IT salaries too high, so businesses are going to drive the salaries down to a respectable level. It's simply market forces at work.

Michael 08/12/02 08:53:00 AM EDT

Hey,

You dont have to immigrate .You dont have experience, good skill set and engineering degree in relevant field.
It's a competitive world .

Mark Stewart 08/12/02 08:45:00 AM EDT

I think the real issue for employers is finding more bang for their buck. That is, not only are employers looking for great Java developers, but also somebody with some management skills, leadership skills, and maybe some other programming skills. The purse strings have tighted up and employers are looking for that one great person that could take the place of 2 or 3 people. In the end, I feel a lot of employers are afraid to pull the trigger and take some risk, they just can't afford it. Gone are the days where companies just needed a warm body to fill a slot. The thought a few years ago was to throw as many people at a project, rush it to market so they could get as much market share as possible. Finally, the market has corrected itself and now more emphasis is being put on ROI, the new buzzword of the new millenium. Time to change those old buzzword bingo games...

Colin Saxton 08/12/02 06:29:00 AM EDT

I wouldn't be surprised if this was put about by Microsoft! If people think there is going to be a skill shortage in one area then they move to any area that is supposidly saturated...Microsoft are at the moment going through an aggresive campaign in trying to promote their .Net platform which they know is not going as planned....J2EE has years on .Net so the only possible thing is to drop to slander (the oldest MS trick in the book)

There is plenty of Java developers out there...If you want to protect your business and your job keep using J2EE/Java technology and all will be fine...Common sence tells you that anything that can run on multiple platforms cannot fail...

Java is also miles ahead with there P2P technology. JXTA making head way here way before anyone else...but what have Microsoft had to say about it...same old slander...

I can remember when they said that Java would go nowhere and that it was a language going through a fad but when I look at .Net I cannot help but notice all of the good ideas that they have tried to copy from Java and claim as their own...Microsoft has no originality and since their very first conception they have always stolen and weaved their way through the industry...

Give it 5 years from now and I know that it is going to be J2EE way out there and also P2P will be gaining a foot...no doubt Microsoft will have there own P2P protocol called MS-JXTA or something...if you know whay I mean...

08/11/02 11:11:00 PM EDT

Go and try to elect leaders who are more american. They keep passing bills that help the corporations who cough up money for their campaigns.m In turn the common man gets screwed.

08/11/02 05:11:00 PM EDT

That is great idea. Atleast you are thinking. But don't be disappointed.It is not India or America as long as you are working class and stay as working class.

malli 08/11/02 05:08:00 PM EDT

To guy from London,

I am not sure what you don't understand how capitalism works. Exploitation. Workers against workers. Richness by expoting poor. It is just a repetetion of colonialism tactics. The difference now capitalism went beyond nationalism. It doesn't care whether workers in US,Uk,India are fed right but cares about maximizing profits. Mavericks of capitalism beyond nationalis,. I feel pitty for those who still think nationalism and take pride. That thinking itself shows their intelligence.

It doesn't matter whether you are hired to pay you debts or live off the street. But how to maxximize profits.

Harry Vim 08/10/02 06:36:00 PM EDT

to the unemployed:

I highly recommend independent study in fields other then j2ee - including a mix of "older" technologies such as RDBMS and C/C++ and "newer" technologies such as .NET api's (System.XML, ASP.NET, Winforms, ADO.NET, etc) and XML (XML Schema, XSLT, WSDL, etc). Also - finding a job is a full time job - dont expect a recruiter to call you up just because you posted your resume or applied to a few positions online.

James Moliere 08/10/02 05:45:00 PM EDT

Greetings,
For those of you who are programmers that are truly skilled and can't find a job. You should consider becoming a CEO and start your own business.
Assuming your company becomes large, you can hire a quality HUMAN RESOURCES staff (sorely needed in any american company), hire quality american programmers, and pay yourself practically anything you want.

In light of the current events with Worldcom, Enron, and I'm sure more companies to follow, try to be at least as good of CEO as you are a programmer. I'm sure your company will thrive.

Do a search on Google.com with the subject, "CEO, salary". You will see the salaries that people (possibly non-deserved) make in this position. In the DOT-COM bomb, you could literally be an idiot and drive your company into the ground. When you are eventually fired, your severance pay will still be greater than most of the people who work for the company -- or used to work for the company.

Good luck in finding a job!

Test 08/10/02 04:23:00 PM EDT
ParanoidSurvive 08/10/02 03:55:00 PM EDT

You have a point. When you say US has one of the best education in the world, I have to agree. But, why is that the graduate and doctoral programs in engineering and computer science in these schools are filled with so many Chinese and Indian students? If enough qualified Americans apply for these programs, obviously they will be given preference, right? May be that the American kids are spending their time worrying about girlfriends, boyfriends, and PROM? While I agree that India should worry about population, you should understand that, if the american kids are busy screwing around instead of focussing on their studies, they do not stand a chance against Indians or any other foreign national.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not generalizing in any way. I know that there are many school dropouts who are very skilled in programming.

A Murkin 08/10/02 10:27:00 AM EDT

Actually no Mr Vader. Those words came from your keyboard. It is a logical fallacy called the "strawman argument" used by demagogues such as Rush Limbaugh and Dick Armey and you apparently. Your replies completely prove my point in regard to arrogance.

Your second reply is at the level of "nyah nyah". Excellent display of critical thought on your part.

>> Didn't you say the same thing about 'African Americans' a decade ago? How about the 'Japs' too? The Hispanics? Put quite simply dude, this is as racist as it gets... you just stereotyped all 'Indian H1B' workers.

Peter Lu 08/10/02 09:50:00 AM EDT

If you are good in your skills and more competent than those overseas workers then you should not worry. Improve your skills set. Your skill sets seems very common and you don't have much experience. Most of the employers don't need computer scientist, they need software engineer who can design and develope quality software.And in many cases it requires experience.

Julian McMaster 08/09/02 04:56:00 PM EDT

There are no shortages. That's typical alarmist marketing crap purposely published to get people all heated up. I'm currently employed and my employer has tons of IT geeks. I develop a little in Java and a little in several other things. I'm not overly concerned about all this stuff. If I lose my job, I'll work somewhere else doing whatever is necessary. I'll survive. I'm clean cut, good looking, can communicate well, and have a bright upbeat personality. I'm not your typical arrogant, "I'm a genius, I know it all" developer. If I had to I could work in just about any position. It's not just the skills people. A lot of it is your arrogant attitude. You're not THAT smart. Get a little humility, learn how to work in and build a team, and you might be appreciated for who you are, not what you can contribute to a certain project.

Frank 08/09/02 04:17:00 PM EDT

All large companies are going to out-source lot's of coding to India, etc. Why wouldn't they it's a lot cheaper and with the Internet it's easy to communicate/ship code, etc. Of course they will keep a smaller group of coders so they have some expertise in-house but all the easy stuff and eventually most stuff will go there.

P.S. Why is it that when we post for contract jobs, etc. we get mostly Indian workers, Russian but very few American coders. Do American workers not want to travel or what? That is another trend for coders you do a project wherever and then leave.

The number of on-staff jobs is not going to go up..Let the fat lady sing..

Logan K. 08/09/02 03:45:00 PM EDT

Thank God we don't hire H1Bs.
This guy is nuts!! My friend, the USA has one of the best education environments around for anyone looking to get into I.T. And it is not just the 'best' universities. Most colleges have coordinated with U.S. IT firms to offer great programs that integrate internships and the like.

As far as basic education, perhaps your country's curriculum on birth control (vice mathematics) is where you need to focus your energy,

Logan K. 08/09/02 03:33:00 PM EDT

I'm an IT manager of a large consulting firm and have personally hired over 15 Java and OO programmers in my department alone over the last 4 years. Work has definitely slowed, and there is next to zero need for these skills at the moment in my area of work. I feel for the programmers out there looking for a job. Its not easy right now. Then again, there is something refreshing about not having to deal with unrealistic demands from interviewees who have minimal skills and want 100K salaries (remember 1999?).

cheers,

Brian O'Donnell 08/09/02 10:13:00 AM EDT

I travel all over the US teaching Java and OO classes. The majority of my students come into class thinking that they actually understand the core OO concepts and how these are applied in Java. By the end of the training, most of those students admit that they did not understand these things but now do. The difference between a programmer and a "quality" programmer (in any language) is not the ability to produce code, it is the ability to produce efficient, scalable, maintainable code. That requires a much deeper understanding than you can get from most Java books and courses. For those who don't believe me, try looking at some of the other (non-Java) software literature out there which actually addresses the fundamentals which are glazed over by most coding books. I started writing code over 20 years ago, but only in the last seven years have I learned the real issues involved in producing quality code and software products.

clowe 08/09/02 09:22:00 AM EDT

although i'm not a programer, i work with a number of people who think they are. they also think they are a large number of other things. when i graduated in '99, 80% of the engineers and i graduated with had jobs before they got their degrees. of these very few still have their jobs. why? because they thought that getting a 3.0 gpa or higher and passing their classes made them engineers. they were wrong. what makes you an engineer is knowing how to apply what you were suppose to have learned. if you can't apply the skills, you are useless to the employeer. the same goes with anything regardless of it being engineering, programing, or whatever.the point is, just because you passed a certification exam does not make you a developer or even a programer. i could pass the certification exam. being able to use java to its fullest makes you a developer. that is what employers are looking for.

Jennifer 08/06/02 05:01:00 PM EDT

Seeking experienced developers for a hedge fund in CT.

DYMHus 08/06/02 03:22:00 PM EDT

I found a job after looking for 2 months.
Java/Web Programmer Analyst.
$75K/year + bonus ($5K min).
No overtime.
I get a PC for home and at work.
I am not certified.
I am not on an H1B.
I have a business degree.
I do not have a technology degree.
I know little about J2EE.
I have never written a J2EE program.
I know SQL.
I know a little JavaScript.
I know a little XML/XSL.
I know much of core Java.
I do not know much about Applets.
I am resourceful.
I can learn anything that I need to learn quickly and apply it.
I know business.
I have read about 8,000 pages of programming books in 2002.
I know how to promote my strengths and not focus on my weaknesses.

I have had this job since May and have put about 3000 lines of code into production since.

Sell yourself. Java Programmers are thick right now. They are not hard to find. What is hard to find? A good employee? Someone that knows business? Someone that shows up to work each day? Someone resourceful? It is different for each employer. If you can find what this "hard to find" item is for the person interviewing you, show that you have the skill they need and sell yourself. Bring in a copy of some work you have done. That will prove you know the technical part.

Anyone of the people posting on this mboard most likely knows more about Java than I do. However, I know what an employer wants - the company wants money. The boss wants an employee that does not cause problems and can get the job done.

I'm not trying to be egotistic. I, however, think that blaming your lack of work on H1B's is full of it. Improve your skills (everyone can), have faith in yourself and in a higher power and you will find what you need.

Gene 08/04/02 09:18:00 PM EDT

Instead of whining about lack of jobs why don't you create them? No one is stopping you from starting your own business.

Jennifer 08/02/02 01:03:00 PM EDT

I am a recruiter for a CT based hedge fund and agree with Avraamides. I recently ran an ad on Dice.com and although the quanity of responses were good, the quality was lacking. Most applicants could not answer basic questions and I could hear them fumbling with their computer keys while trying to answer me. For all you great programmers out there (I know you are there because I work with many)...a little insight woudl be nice!

still confused 08/01/02 01:47:00 PM EDT

you still are implementing an interface, whether you use the keyword implements or not. you still have not answered my question why someone would claim that they know what an anonymous inner class is by saying that they know when to use it instead of an interface. I can think of more essential characteristics or uses of anonymous classes than to say that I know when to use them instead of an interface. and if i interviewed someone for a java position and that was the answer they gave me, i would need to hear more than what you have explained before I would hire them as a developer.

the point is that there are a lot of people who think that they know java.
i work with so-called java developers every day, and i am awe-struck by how little they know about the language and how to increase productivity with it. For somebody to say that they are a certified programmer and therefore should be hired because they can say anonymous inner class and interface in the same sentence and have done the work for 5 years is incredulous. There are plenty of 5+ year developers out there who made it through the internet craze because there were no where near enough developers. and they became accustomed to the salaries they were making during those peak years, and now that their deficiencies are being exposed they cannot understand why they aren't getting 150k and a BMW to sign on. Then they turn to blaming H1's for not being able to find work or other such nonsense.

I do believe that there is a shortage of java developers. As to why you cannot find a job, I'm really not sure. maybe your geographcial region is less than optimal, maybe your social skills are lacking, maybe you are asking for too much money relative to the value you can add, there are a number of reasons. But I certainly don't think it is due to a lack of demand for skilled java developers.

Jerason Banes 08/01/02 12:10:00 PM EDT

The code didn't come out very well. Let's try this again:

DefaultTableModel model = new DefaultTableModel(columnNames, 0)
{
Class[] types = new Class []
{
java.lang.String.class, java.lang.Integer.class
};

public Class getColumnClass(int columnIndex)
{
return types [columnIndex];
}

public boolean isCellEditable(int row, int col)
{
return false;
}
};

Hopefully that looks a bit better.

Jerason Banes 08/01/02 11:03:00 AM EDT

Yes sir, I do indeed think you are confused. An anonymous inner class doesn't need an interface. It extends any class with an implementation, even if the class is already implemented. For example, I have a piece of code in DataDino that looks like this:

DefaultTableModel model = new DefaultTableModel(columnNames, 0)
{
Class[] types = new Class []
{
java.lang.String.class, java.lang.Integer.class
};

public Class getColumnClass(int columnIndex)
{
return types [columnIndex];
}

public boolean isCellEditable(int row, int col)
{
return false;
}
};

As you can see, we merely extend a class, we don't implement anything. Java knows which methods are available, because the compiler generates a file called MyClass$1.class. As a result, the class is anonymous to you or I, but to the runtime it is named.

Now let me ask you, I am perfectly capable of answering that or thousands of other questions you might have regarding Java and I've got a solid resume of experience. I've been out of a job for 9 months. Do you think that I've "just read a few books here and there"?

Whether you believe it or not, employers do have jobs they want filled, but for some reason they aren't actually filling them.

Confused 08/01/02 09:55:00 AM EDT

can someone explain to me why a distinction was made between an anonymous inner class and an interface? It seems to me that an anonymous inner class is useless without implementing an interface (how else would the compiler know how to call methods on the class?) 5 years and can't find a new job? maybe if you stopped reading books and started writing code you would know that just because two keywords don't mean the same thing they still collaborate with one another. There are plenty of jobs for real developers who know java and have done more than read a book and take the multiple choice programmer exam.

David Kuykendall 07/30/02 01:34:00 PM EDT

I am looking for a Java developer in San Antonio, Texas. We do everything from embedded devices (running Java), RS-485 Communication (in Java), to Database (JDBC) and User Interface programming (in Java). I need a JAVA developer that can and will do everything from setting port bits to eveluating the human factors of a new user interface. You should understand the phrase "The Network is the Computer." Email me at david@novus-security.com with a Subject of "Java Developer" -- david

Jay 07/30/02 12:50:00 PM EDT

If the employers are not able to find people with appropriate Java knowledge then naturally the salary offered should go up. Instead the salary keeps going down in this market.
Salary goes down only when there are fewer jobs than applicants.

Darth Maul 07/30/02 12:48:00 PM EDT

Q.E.D? On the contrary, *I* rest my case my friend :)

Ron Howard 07/30/02 02:17:00 AM EDT

This always happens. When workers go on strike (usually because they're being screwed) and the companies hire "scabs", everyone blames the "scabs". It's NOT their fault. Look, they're just trying to get some work too, and if you were in their situation you'd take the job in a second.

The problem is with the employers, the companies that are screwing the workers. Why is there no work for US Java programmers right now? Well, one part is that alot of dumb-execs stupidly ran businesses into the ground (or started businesses that didn't even have a real business-purpose). But the bigger reason is that during the big "craze" workers (in LARGE part tech industry and programmers) started to get back some of the power that they had when Unions were bigger in the US. Think about it:

Suddenly people were getting not just medical and dental, but gym memberships, massages once a week, we could dress how we wanted, we worked our hours, salaries began to jump, companies suddenly had to compete for employees and offer them not just more money but better packages and working environments. Trust me, the reason the job market (in particular the full-time one) dried up is because companies are taking the power back. Don't believe me? Go to www.congress.gov and look at the bills they've been passing in the last few years, it's never a coincidence.

A Murkin 07/29/02 06:28:00 PM EDT

To Darth Vader

Q.E.D.

Darth Maul 07/29/02 06:14:00 PM EDT

Didn't you say the same thing about 'African Americans' a decade ago? How about the 'Japs' too? The Hispanics?
Put quite simply dude, this is as racist as it gets... you just stereotyped all 'Indian H1B' workers.

It's sad to see that with *all* your resources and information, you create this stereotype... you really do have a great sense of humour (and in most English speaking countries that's spelled WITH the 'u')

A Murkin 07/29/02 05:39:00 PM EDT

The anger towards Indian H1B workers wouldn't be so great if these workers just *tried* to assimilate into our society. Try checking the arrogance at the door, take a bath and get a sense of humor already.

Alan Eustace 07/29/02 09:59:00 AM EDT

okay, blame your government then, for poor employment policies- don't blame H1s themselves.

They're coming from countries that have unimaginable poverty, and which the West have profited extensively from in the past.

Lee Hall 07/29/02 07:53:00 AM EDT

The problem is not with Java. Or with our skills - if you're reading this publication, it shows you have more than a passing interest in Java.

The problem is the buyer's market we are in, where the prices are still adjusting downward. An important characteristic of this market is that "quality" is now secondary to "price" because the majority of buyers (the HR managers - not the project leads) don't understand the long-range value of developer quality.

Instead of a project lead looking for quality and experience, we must now have to deal with buzzword-laden job descriptions that identify that one-in-a-million person who is the perfect candidate with the right acronym chemistry - and very low salary requirements.

My previous statement assumes that resumes even get that much attention. I don't think that most do. I think that most HR managers are as overwhelmed with the changing market as we are. Are technical job descriptions as ill-defined as most functional specifications?

If you're in the construction trade - or an industry related to it - the "new home starts" measure of the economy is an important indicator of work. For us, the measure is "new IT project starts". Does anyone know where to go look for that indicator?

Until the NASDAQ has a steady quarter (or so), I don't think new projects will get started. Until that happens, the "...work is coming" is questionable.

A huge number of folks have seen their investments fail over the past five years. We developers are also in that number, although it isn't likely that others will understand our plight. We've had great salaries and cushy working conditions. Thats the perception (I don't think non-programmers have any clue about the pressures of Software Engineering with technology changing so quickly).

Anyway, one comment that hit home is to "Quit whining!". We've had our day in the sun and now its over. Deal with it! Cowboy up!

What I would really like to see (on 60 minutes, if possible :) is an expose' on fraudulent headhunters / consulting firms. I'm sure that there are good, honest companies in that industry; but some of them (perhaps the majority) are like scalpers or carpetbaggers. They are posting jobs that they MIGHT be able to get, not that they actually have the authority to hire for. We all get very frustrated when they flash jobs that are just rumors.

Josh 07/28/02 02:58:00 PM EDT

I wanted to show support for the statement a few posts ago, that there are alot of maginal java developers out there. I also wanted to voice my disent from the statement that there are jobs out there. Let me quickly say that I am a java developer, and I do consider myself highly skilled. I also have a bachelors in computer science and almost 5 years of java and microsoft development experience.
As to the history majors who program, I agree. The internet bubble sucked alot of people with marginal abilities at best into the IT workforce. It created an environment where anyone who could see lightening hear thunder and spell internet thought that they were entitled to a high paying job, that would go one forever. The bubble has burst and those days are over. It takes time to filter the chaff from the wheat and that is in many ways what is happening. However, there are other forces at work, which hurt us all, and that is where my dissent takes over.
There are not jobs in java right now. If there are, they are for liars and falsifiers of resumes. Countless are the times I have seen a job post that wanted 10 years of java experience. Now if you really know java, and I do, you can't possibly have really gotten into it before 95-96. By my count that is 7 years, and even that is grossly optimistic. I have a friend who is indonesian, and no he is not a member of the axis of evil, though people apparently keep asking him. He has pointed out to me that many of these job posts are there only to establish that no American could possibly fill these jobs, in order to justify bringing in low paid foreign labor. At first I didn't believe it, but it makes alot of sense. I am a very versatile programmer with lots of experience working in all sorts of different java API's and even I can't satisfy the minimum requirements of most of these posts, assuming I were honest on my resume.
Most importantly and I think the point that has been ignored up to now in this discussion, is that its not just java programmers, its all IT and engineering talent. Its no secret companies don't want to pay employees. They would rather chain them to their desks and work them until they drop, its much more profitable that way. Foreigners have the advantage in that they are hungrier than we are.
Now I should say that I have found work. Not however, as a java developer. I am doing VB/ASP/SQL development. It could be that we all have to be that flexible in the coming years to adapt to the new realities of IT. I do know that at least in my area I have searched long and hard for work and like most people haven't even gotten a response to my resume. I would like to hear what your evidence is to the contrary.

Mr T 07/28/02 12:14:00 PM EDT

. Let's face it, American collegues, your education system sucks. Yes, you have the top technical universities in the world, but right after that there is a steep downward curve. I have interviewed tons of candidates. In the beginning, I asked them the same questions as the ones I asked in Europe, but after a while I had to lower the standards, there was no other choice. Of course, it is not a completely fair competition: Asians and European coming to the US, are already at the top of their group in their homecountry. An average US engineer doesn't have a chance...

I find the comment of this HI guy to be disturbing. Oh so American education is so poor and Europe and Asia is better. Ok how come the best software companies from Oracle to Adobe all have US roots.

Please let us know who is responsible for Java .NET, UNIX and the like ? What has europe (pls dont even mention Linux as its a clone of UNIX and AT&T invention) or Asia (India ? come on )has offered that compares to the US. Fact is that the US still has the most brilliant and ingenious programmers. From Larry Wall to Richard Stallman to Bill Joy then
James Gosling etc etc I could go on but I've made my point. ITs the American Universities (Stamford, MIT, Berkley) that churned this lot out. Let me ask you from Europe, who has Cambridge churned out recently. Apart from Helsinki what else is there ? and pls donrt even mention Bangalore ;)

The only reason for H1 success is that they are dirt cheap and not because they've got any better education.

Think about this and see how dumb you sound.

Jerason Banes 07/27/02 08:32:00 PM EDT

I suspect many of you, who are struggling to find jobs, do not have Java-related "Work" experience.

You guessed wrong. I've been professionally using Java for about 5 years now. When I launched my first servlet enabled site, the 1.0 servlet specs had only been out for a few months. I eventually went on to be the cheif architect and lead programmer of a million hit a day site that used J2EE technology. Still no job.

Talking with several other people, it seems they have a similar experience. They've spent a lot of time with Java, but they're getting dropped because they don't have work experience with something stupid like an IDE. Oh, btw. Employers at the moment don't seem to care jack squat about open-source experience. They look entirely at your skill set, and if it doesn't match their needs EXACTLY, they throw you out the door. It's lunacy!

Jerason Banes
jbanes@techie.com
http://www.datadino.com

JavaLover 07/27/02 06:48:00 PM EDT

I suspect many of you, who are struggling to find jobs, do not have Java-related "Work" experience. I good that you can pass "Exams", BUT most employers want to see relevent experience. I was laid off twice between 2000-2002, but I was able to find jobs within 1-2 months. My suggestion is for you guys to participate in Open-Source projects(ie. Apache, Jakarta, Jboss) to gain that relevent experience. Hang in there guys, the market is getting better. BTW: I also have done C# related development, and in comparison, Java is still much more mature and stable than C#.

Wallclimber 07/27/02 10:21:00 AM EDT

It's so convenient to blame the influx of H1B's on the lower wages. This may be a factor, but then I have yet to see this. In my company and all other companies were friends are working as H1B (like me), H1B's are usually among the better paid, for the simple reason that they are better engineers.
Let's face it, American collegues, your education system sucks. Yes, you have the top technical universities in the world, but right after that there is a steep downward curve. I have interviewed tons of candidates. In the beginning, I asked them the same questions as the ones I asked in Europe, but after a while I had to lower the standards, there was no other choice.
Of course, it is not a completely fair competition: Asians and European coming to the US, are already at the top of their group in their homecountry. An average US engineer doesn't have a chance...

yetAnotherCertifiedUnemployed 07/27/02 09:54:00 AM EDT

H1Bs are the Wetbacks of the 21st Century.
Until the US government erases all borders, renounces sovereignty, and
we are all citizens of a world government, it is corruption and hypocrisy
for that same govt to claim that "pure supply and demand" should rule for
fat corporations wanting slave-wage programmers, but not for other parts
of the economy with different lobbyist dynamics. If it is all global capitalism,
why cant I buy Cuban rum here? Oh, I see, there are exceptions. Well
who decides? Isn't it funny how they decide based on who pays the most
to their campaign funds